My friend Mary's post today reminded me of something that I just recently found out about and wanted to throw out there for you all. There have been lots and lots and lots of discussions about what exactly is going on with the single Mormons. Why aren't we dating? Why are we all 28+ and single? Don't we ever want to have sex? (Answers for me: I don't know, I don't know, YES!!)
Different people will give different explanations: people are focusing on their careers, guys are too picky, girls are too picky, guys don't ask out girls, girls should ask out guys, girls should be more demure, etc etc etc.
But I officially have the real reason for those of us here in Boston: it's all about the guys.
Hear me out.
When our new bishop was called I met with him soon after to talk about my calling. After business was out of the way we chatted a bit about my time in law school and what I want to do, as well as discussed the ward as a whole. He asked me at that time if the attitude we had seen from one of the guys in Ward Council that morning was pretty run of the mill for the guys in the ward. I asked him what he meant and he did a perfect impersonation of this guy, complete with slumping in his chair, legs splayed out. Basically, the discussion in Ward Council was about an upcoming dance. The bishop challenged the guys in the room to encourage the other guys to come to the dance and to even ask someone to it. This particular guy, who held a leadership position, shrugged and mumbled something non-committal.
I told the bishop that in my observations over the past couple of years, that basically summed it up. None of the girls were dating. Lots of girls come to activities and 3 guys come. Then the girls get discouraged and rag on the guys and stop coming to activities.
Well our bishop has now been in place for almost 10 months and has continually encouraged the guys to ask out the girls. I found out from a friend that guys will say to him that they want to get married, but when he asks when the last time they asked a girl out was, they'll say 2 years ago, or something similar.
Duh, guys, God's not going to plop her in your lap with a big red ribbon.
Now here is why I believe it's official that it's all about the guys here in Boston. One of my friends went to talk with the bishop recently and was discussing her frustration with never getting asked out or even noticed for that matter. The bishop's suggestion: travel. Yes, it's official, the bishop has given up on the guys in the area. And apparently he's giving this advice to many of the women here. He told my friend that he knows there is a worthy Priesthood holder out there for her and that she may need to go find him.
I know that there are other LDS guys out there who may read my blog who actually do date (Hi, Chris!). But apparently Boston is a lost cause.
50 comments:
Perhaps I'm just having a bitter time of it myself, but I completely agree with you. My time in Boston pretty much ended dating in my life (not that I ever had a lot, but yeah). I had more dates with a guy from Utah (three) than with guys in Boston (two)--and those dates in Boston involved me having to be extremely pushy just to go do something informal.
Personally, though, I don't think it's just Boston. It was the same in Chicago, it's the same in Seattle--just more people in Boston, so you'd *think* that would mean more dating opportunities. Though--I guess if I take my bitter goggles off, I did get asked out here in Seattle within two months of moving in, which is more than I could say for any guy in Boston, even if the guy did end up being a dork to me.
I'm doing the eh-i-knew-it- chuckle. Except you know, not really laughing or anything. But you know, it's nice to know that we are not all crazy and that we have a very perceptive and caring Bishop (though I knew that already).
cat
I have to say that maybe the fact that there are SO many LDS girls to choose from in places like Boston (and DC where I live) makes guys lax. In NJ, I dated a whole lot more. My guy friends were not afraid to ask me or other girls out. Also traveling and moving does help, because you are the new girl and are a new curiosity. My roomie was asked out five times in her Being the new girl, goes a long way although all that job instability it will cause would kill your career. A big Catch-22.
ah, church dances. maybe some people don't like dances, especially lame church dances. the only times i went are when i got stuck DJing them.
Look, it's really just a numbers game. unfortunately for you ladies, there are just a lot more of you than there are guys. this is definitely true in boston, and probably most other places too. unfortunately, as people pair off and drop out of the scene, the gap grows even wider. By the time people get into their late 20s in the mormon world, most of the guys who are not married are divorced, gay, or very strange. just look around the LPW...
so i guess you are largely right that it is the guys. but pressuring them to go to dances, or having bishops make stupid marriage jokes or comments at every possible opportunity will not really help. when i was in the singles ward that sort of thing made me want to never come back, and i know for a fact there were a lot of people who felt similar to me (and who are now happily married). there are a lot of other important things to concentrate on besides getting married.
Travel? Just how far and to where? From what I read here and at Mary's blog it appears as if no matter where your friend goes, she would meet the same fate. And as Mr. Anonymous right above me amply proves, no one of the male persuasion wants to feel pressured into dating or they will just bail all together. Hmmm! So what's a girl to do?
Kelly,
Good thing you mentioned me. I mean, if you didn't, I'd have to start up another thread, and we all know where that ended.
If I can point out two of my entries:
http://www.hardys.org/archives/000192.html
and
http://www.hardys.org/archives/000239.html
It's a *Church* wide problem. I can tell you right now, we have 2x more men on the membership rolls than women. Last Sunday we had 2x more women attending.
I think Elder Oaks had some good points.
I'm dating, in fact, I date every week, so now I'm a commitment phobe.
Cuz girls have this knack for mentally picturing how your last name and their first name look on paper and what your kids are going to look like. On the first/second date.
I'm not saying girls have done this to me, or that I'm some super stud.
One thing Elder Oaks said that I think will help girls is that
1) Don't do the "Super pressure, we are going to get married, goo-goo eyes at the end of the date" Thing. I'll bolt, unless I'm like 500% crushed on the girl.
That's never happened.
2) Less pressure for the dates. I've had several times when one big date (Concert, comedian) fell through within 1-2 days. I called a few girls, and one of them found out that she was the second choice. She got upset with me.
I don't even understand that in the slightest. I was putting out big money, The fact that I had thought of her was trumpted by the fact that she was the second one.
Just be happy to be dating! I enjoy being around girls! Even though I don't understand them at all!
Girls rock, don't give up, and boys like me HATE dances (can you say spaz on the dance floor?)
I'm not a big dance fan myself, but the dance is just an example. There are similar responses to any and all activities.
I understand there are more women than men. But as I said, the majority of the guys are not dating AT ALL. Not even making an effort. For two years or more. THAT's what ticks me off.
Kelly, I agree with you entirely. The fact that there are 2x's as many women as men means there is no reason why these guys shouldn't be dating--even casually. Like Elder Oaks said (I just read that talk yesterday, was a real eye opener that this is a problem not just for your area but church-wide), dates don't have to be big, expensive, formal affairs... often the casual dates are the best way to get to know someone.
2x's as many women? I'd have killed for odds like that when I was single, sheesh. These punks don't know how good they have it.
Jef, to respond to your comments:
A. I and the other women in the ward do pray about it. I am actually feeling fine with my situation right now, I just think it's interesting that even our bishop realizes how serious the problem is.
1. So guys fear rejection, fine. Women don't? Both women and men put themselves on the line in this dating game. Get a backbone and ask out a girl. If a guy hasn't even asked anyone out in two years because of the fear of rejection, in my opinion, he is just being a wimp.
2. There is no age cut off in my singles ward. I would rather date a guy who is older and established, but when NO ONE is asking anyone out, that kind of puts the kibosh on options.
3. I know you've been reading my blog so you must have gathered that I am all about self-improvement lately. Like I said before, I am fine right now. I am not complaining in bitter fashion, I am just commenting on an interesting development in our bishop's counsel.
4. I don't think you're getting that people don't date AT ALL - in groups or otherwise - except for a very small minority. We go to parties and hang out. Which is exactly what Elder Oakes has a problem with.
5. My parents joined the church when I was 2. For Mormon purists I don't measure up because my parents are inactive and I am the sole member in my family and I don't come from pioneer stock. To not date non-members would make me a giant hypocrite.
I think most of the very cool and level-headed Mormon guys who I know are either converts or had a period of inactivity at some point. I have no problem dating a good man who is a non-member, and, in fact, have gone out on more dates with non-members than members since I moved to Boston. However, because of time most of the people I meet are at church, so that limits my field. Once I have a job and am done with the Bar and everything, I plan to branch out and pursue some of my other interests, which may affect my dating pool.
Also, when it comes to guys who aren't members of the church, once they find out about the no sex thing they're pretty much not interested any more. Mormon dating patterns are very very different from those of people outside of the church.
6. I have no idea what you mean by this. "Women have the choice to say yes or no"? Are you talking about to a date? Doesn't matter when no one asks you out.
Wow, so TRAVELLING is the answer, huh? Thanks bish. (He's not my bishop though. My bishop bleaches his hair and drives a Hummer.) I am travelling to England and would love to use my New Girl status to snag me some Colin Firth Lookalike but I doubt it will happen. My friends over there say things are just as bad, with the girls getting on with their lives and the guys just sort of . . . hanging out. I don't know what the problem is either, but it can't be me. :-) Heck, I've been a walking scholarship for years now, so you'd some bright undergrad would have taken the bait. I'm just grateful that it's not 1975, when I would have been tossed in some Special Interest group at 25 and sent to stake dances with skeezy 40-yr-old men.
"When you tease (non-sexually) and then withdraw guys will follow. Guys love to chase and hunt. It's as old as time."
Or, where we are, it is more likely that they would run away scared. Or, take the teasing and think they are super hot and just need to stand there to attract women, and then do nothing.
Travel is indeed the answer.
I went to Ireland and got more action in two months than I had in two years in NYC. I'm just saying. Over there, apparently it's the girls who don't want to date the men. They were all over the american, me. If I could just figure out a way to move there.
I also have a very single and good looking brother in Florida if anyone is interested.
I don't know if they are demasculated so much as apathetic and a bit lazy (in that they take for granted there will always be women around).
That is a bit harsh, and I'm sure (I hope!) not true all around, but there is an element of that.
I just have to say this.
Since all the guys are dorfuses, it leaves me with 3x girls to date.
I can't complain about that. :)
They have no idea what they are missin!
Allow me to add another thought to this fascinating chain of comments.
I'm willing to believe that this problem, apparently church-wide, has more to do with a lack of something from men. However, I don't know what that something is, and even more important, I cannot change that. I can do absolutely nothing about the 3:1 odds, I can do nothing about the commitment phobes, the demasculated disciples, whatever the case may be.
Here is what I can control:
my bitter factor
my testimony
the confidence I exude in public
the smiles and hugs I give
the compliments I express
and many other things like this...
I have to admit, in my own experience, that when I simply focus on being a daughter of God, or when I'm being my zany self and not caring who's watching, or when I am genuinely more interested in having a good time than catching a boy's eye, my odds have increased, and my phone rings.
Just an observation. And I'm not saying by this that Kelly or anyone else disagrees with me. I'm saying what I'm saying. I can play the blame game, or I can focus on the things in my control.
I know Kelly. I see her embracing life in a new and incredible way. And so long as she continues in this trend, the odds will shift to her favor in a huge and obvious way very, very soon. Of that I have no doubt.
In an attempt to continue beating a dead horse I'm going to leave another comment.
I think there are four areas to be blamed here..
1) The Boy
2) The Girl
3) The Church
4) The World
The Boy: Guys need to get off their duffs. End of story. I have a friend, an EQP in his Ward, who was talking to me and has said the following:
"I really haven't dated in over a year"
"I wish there were more girls that were pretty and had good personalities"
He's waiting for Mrs. Perfect, and is dis-interested in meeting anyone else. Thus, he hangs out a lot.
Me, I lead a pathetic existance until about 8 months ago, when I got hooked up (via a friend) with my last Ex. Which leads to
The Girl: My Ex took a chance on me, and we had fun while it lasted. Here's my sad story.
Me - Come home from mission, I'm 6'4" and was almost 300lbs. I date a lot, I get rejected a lot. I'd watch the girls swarm around one guy. After a year or so of this, I just shut down, and went about my own merry way.
Along the many years, I decided I was very unhappy at my weight and size. I then dropped 90lbs. All the sudden, girls who would not give me the time of day 90lbs ago, were being very friendly. Those girls, I will still not give the time of day to. Any girl who says she isn't motivated by looks. I call BS. Thin Chris is much more of a ladies man that Thick Chris ever was.
Then along comes the Ex, who knew I liked her (On date #2, I was so afraid I'd never date her again, I stole a kiss. Funny Story, I may blog about it, I don't know). She was agressive enough to let *me* know she was interested from then on, that, well, we dated and had fun. She gave me a lot of confidence though, and helped me learn more about girls, which leads to
The Church: I think the Church does a disservice to the youth. How many of the members can relate to this.
Ages 6-17: Go to Scouts/Young Women during the week, some school. Go to church, be around girls for 2 hours (sunday school).
The Church in these woods kept the sexs very far apart. Only to be introduced under careful supervision. Unless you were the cool kid at school, you probably didn't have that many girls (or boys, if that's your case) hanging out with you.
Then you are 16, Time to DATE! Then you are off on the mission, then back, and TIME TO GET MARRIED!
Since I only got to see mormon girls sporatically, I never got to know how to communicate with ya'll.
Then, The World:
The world is constantly throwing it's values at you
Job
Education
Mrs. Perfect
Sex (Porn, etc)
Divorce
No responsibility
toys
To me, it comes down to priorities. Thanks to the Ex, I want a
Companion
Kids
Someone to drive around the RV when we get old (I'm holding onto this dream.).
So, I get rejected by a girl? So what! I just move on to the next one who catches my eye.
So once again, I've word vomitted. Hope it makes sense to someone >:)
Just to add - guys in Southern California are a lost cause, too. :) They probably all have cousins in Boston!
Allow me to interrupt the man bashing to provide a different perspective. Many guys when they get off their missions feel compelled to get married very quickly. It's usually a combination of it being the right thing to do in mormon society, and them wanting to have sex. They usually are attracted to a lot of people, date a lot of people, and quickly find someone who is more or less compatible. These are the people who get married in college, usually by age 23 or 24. it describes a good majority of eligible mormon men. but not all of them.
There is another population of guys who have a different outlook on marriage and dating. Perhaps they never quite fit in or felt completely comfortable in the mormon culture. They're a little unorthodox by mormon standards. They don't particularly like dances, or other byu-like cheesy activities that are prevalent in their singles wards. They enjoy the company of women, sure, but are also happy being single and spending time with their friends and other interests. They desire eventually to have wives and families but feel no great push to get married right away. perhaps their parents, friends, or they themselves have been divorced. They are a little freaked out by all their friends and relatives that got engaged to people they had dated for two months. They understand marriage is serious business and it's important to find a compatible person. If they meet someone who they are interested in, they will pursue them. if not, there's still time for that later. They do not like the type of "dating" where they go out with woman after woman that they have no particular interest in, hoping that something will develop. They are more comfortable getting to know people in a non-pressure "hanging out" situation. They resent being made to feel as if they must date, and especially that it is a priesthood duty. Maybe they just don't feel like dating or being in a relationship just then.
Now, you may not like this type of man, and you may think his attitudes are not those of a good mormon, but by the time you get to your late 20s in a singles ward he is quite common. The first type of man, frankly, has married out of the pool by that time. The last paragraph is a good description of me. it also describes an awful lot of my friends in similar circumstances.
I like girls. but i am not particularly attracted to most of them. I enjoy their company, i find them interesting, but i don't find most of them sexually attractive. think about it- you don't get a crush on everyone you see right? I think this is probably true for most people (or at least most men--i can only speak for them). Now, of the group that i would find attractive enough to want to pursue, the majority of them will be ruled out upon further getting to know them and learning our personalities are not very compatible.
Maybe it's time to stop blaming the men and start blaming the math. You ladies have all said there are only a handful of decent straight men in your ward. think about it--what are the odds that one of them will be attracted to you physically, and be compatible with your personality, and share common interests? very low. Ever consider the possibility that the guys are looking around and just not seeing much that interests them? Not that there's anything wrong with you necessarily, just that you aren't good matches for them personally? That's the way it was for me (and i know i am not alone) in those wards. i never dated much, but i looked around and i knew that the overwhelming majority of the women i would not be compatible with, from brief conversations or sunday school comments, or cause i wasn't physically that attracted to them. The pool is extremely small on both sides. much smaller for the women, and that is a shame and something you have a legitimate gripe over. but is blaming the men the correct answer? Now before everyone starts casting stones because i have suggested the men may not be seeing much that interests them, notice the women say exactly the same thing. Everytime i talk with LPW women, i hear the same story. the women in this ward are great, but the guys are total duds. they are all such losers, and there's really no one to pick from. You're writing most of them off, is it such a surprise they are doing the same to you? Trust me when i say, based on several conversations with people of both genders, the LPW men do not think the LPW women are as great as the LPW women think the LPW women are. I don't think there's anything wrong with one side or the other so much as there are just not all that many people to pick from for either gender. If you put me in a room with 100 women, even 100 mormon women, i think i would be hard pressed to find even one or two who may be compatible in marriage with me personally. Now, this is not the case for everyone, but remember those people were married off by 23, so there are not a lot of them left in the 27+ cohort.
now i will digress - I am sure people will also take issue with my assertion that physical attraction is so important. you may have a lot of great qualities. but a marriage is not just a friendship, it is a sexual relationship as well. A sexual attraction is a necessary (but not sufficient) component of marriage. Marriages entered into without a proper sexual attractiveness component will end up unhappy, or end in infidelity and divorce. But attraction is a tricky thing to understand. I will speak only from a male perspective.
I think most women underestimate the significance of physical appearance to a man, even if they accept it in the abstract. People think this means men only want women who look like supermodels. It doesn't. What i mean is, a man will be attracted to you based on what you look like. I've been attracted to a lot of women that my friends weren't attracted to. There was just something about them that i really liked. that's the great thing--there are always people that will find you attractive, no matter what you think you look like.
Most people understand that this is how things are (even if they don't like to admit it). But what this means, and this is where i think people have a hard time, is that if a guy is not interested in a woman, there is very little she can do to change that. she may have a great personality, or be funny, or whatever, but this will not make the guy like her in the right way. I believe there have been a few popular books published recently that make this point, though i havent read them. I think it's different for women.
attraction for them is based less on physical appearance (though that is still important), so how a man acts or what he does or what he is inside, or how much money he makes, or a host of other factors, can do more to influence her attraction for him. case in point, we often see good-looking young women with fat bald 50 year old men, but never the other way around.
So when I say i wouldn't want to date a woman that i am not particularly attracted to physically, you might think that is horribly shallow and that if only i got to know her i would realize how great she was. I think, she may be great, but i still wouldnt be attracted to her, so what's the point? hence the aversion to "casual dating."
Men, for their part, also have trouble understanding female attraction to them. The problem is (from our perspective) if you ask a woman what she is looking for in a man, she will give you a nice list of qualities, most of which match up nicely with how the church exhorts men and boys to behave. the problem is these are not the things that make men attractive to them, they are the qualities they wish the men they are attracted to possessed. a lot of "nice guys" are pretty good at most of these things. but sooner or later, one of two things happens. 1) they end up as the gay best friend of a girl they really like while she runs off with an outlaw biker, or 2) those nice qualities will help them attract a girl initially, but she rapidly becomes bored and leaves them for some "exciting" non-mormon loser. sure this is a little tongue-in-cheek, but i've seen it happen to me and almost all other "nice guys" i know.
The point is, it's hard for us too. Attraction is a complicated phenomenon, and both sides seek to understand it from their own paradigm, which creates a lot of misunderstanding and misplaced blame. Well this has become long and rambling, and i apologize. i feel sorry for the women, they definitely have worse odds. But i think blame the numbers instead of the men. People do get married out of singles wards. it works out sometimes.
Anonymous, 'fess up. Who are you? :)
I actually agree with some of the things you said, even though on their face, like you said, they could be read as kind of shallow. I've always thought that guys decide within 15 seconds, if that long, if they are attracted to a girl, and there's nothing the girl can ever do to change his mind. However, girls can learn to think a guy is attractive based on other qualities.
That said, I personally can name 7 or 8 or 15 guys in our ward who I would readily go out with, even if they're not the flavor of the month. Mormon girls tend to cluster around whoever is deemed the cute boy or boys of the moment, but I can't get into that. I don't want to play the catty games so I don't. There are several quiet, geeky types who I think seem nice.
I also think it would be nice if guys asked out girls just for fun so that everyone isn't sitting home on a weekend night. In college I did a lot of group and double dates just for fun where it was pretty clear that we weren't interested in each other, or that there was mild interest, but nothing dramatic. Those were lots of fun. With things the way they are we're in a tough situation: guys are only asking out girls who they think might possibly have eternal potential, and girls are getting asked out so infrequently that when they do get asked out they immediately start trying out their name with the guy's last name. It's a vicious cycle and I think more casual dating could remedy that. But it's only going to happen if it's church-wide.
Amen Anonymous
Amen, Kelly. Hence the moving. Okay, not entirely, but I have to admit (and why not here for all the internet to see?) that moving on to something new is partially motivated by the utter dearth of opportunities. Is that pathetic? I don't think so. I think it's cutting my losses and moving on or whatever.
Granted, I am fully aware that I shoulder a lot of the blame for my "social situation" due to my being a total Ice Princess (or Ice B****, depending on who you ask) and also recovering from a wicked bad Armageddon of a relationship. But still, I go to the parties, I put myself out there...sometimes.
It's not so much me that I'm feeling sorry about. It's all of us. We get such conflicting messages--ask the guy out, don't ask the guy out, make the guy dinner, don't let the guy freeload--it's just hard to figure it all out.
I don't have a solution, or even words that comfort me, let alone anyone else. I just wanted to say Amen.
Ah, you see, the internet is great because I _can_ be anonymous. besides, kell's bells, i don't think we've ever met, though we probably know a lot of the same people.
>I've always thought that guys decide within 15 seconds, if that long, if they are attracted to a girl, and there's nothing the girl can ever do to change his mind.
This is more or less true. I'm just trying to call things like i see them, once we strip away all the social conditioning and the way we are "supposed" to feel. I would personally like it if my attraction to a girl was able to change by her being nice to me or something. it would make life, and dating, a lot easier. but it rarely really works out like this. how we want things to be and how they are are not the same thing.
I noticed the clustering effect you mentioned when against all odds i became the subject of a cluster back in my university ward days. people started telling me that a bunch of girls were interested in me. apparently, the attractive quality i possessed was that of "mysterious aloofness" because i was not asking any of them out. hilarious. see, to succeed you just need to not try. just like in the tao of steve, which is a great movie if you have never seen it. I just basked in my mysterious aloofness for a while and the cluster moved on.
Dating for fun would be nice. The problem, as you attest, is that people treat it as such deadly serious business. vicious cycle indeed...
Yes, you know, we can only control ourselves and keep improving and keep doing things that are interesting and makes us happier and better people. The thing is, for some us, even when we do all those things, we still aren't attractive to other sex and our phone still doesn't ring. If that worked for everyone, we wouldn't be having this problem.
I'll try some more brutal honesty, cause it's kind of fun. I think for most men, whether or not they will admit it to themselves, relationships are largely about sex. maybe even just on a subconscious level. The emotional closeness, the friendship and companionship, are all nice. but family can provide emotional support, pets and friends can provide friendship. Most straight men don't really get all that excited about reading poetry or buying flowers. we only want to kiss you in the rain to the extent that we think we will be able to kiss you more after we get out of the rain. We do all these things because they make you happy and make you like us and want to be physical with us. This is basically the natural man that we all struggle against.
In a mormon context, we have the law of chastity, and we have basically coupled sex and marriage, which complicates the dating relationship. this is fine when everyone is 17 and people are talking about sex but not doing it, but fast forward 10 years and it seems curiously quaint. (as an aside, i cannot believe how juvenile some church members' attitudes toward sex are. people are always giggling like teenagers and making stupid jokes about married people or babies or what have you.) A lot of people outside the church will date someone even if they don't feel they are compatible long term, cause they figure they will get sexual fulfillment out of it. This is not an option for mormons. So yeah, non-mormon guys will ask you out and be interested in you, but surely you know they are only trying to sleep with you. and, like was mentioned above, when you explain the no sex thing, they lose interest. it's similar for women, they may hang on a little longer and admire your ideals, but most of them will eventually lose interest as well. So as mormons, we tend to focus much more and earlier on whether someone is marriageable material rather than just sexually interesting, because marriage represents our only proper access to sex. hence the seriousness in our dating.
What this also means is that many many mormons get married for sex (which is probably a poor reason). Don't believe me? Ask yourself this- if we were able to have guilt-free wonderful church-sanctioned sex with the people we were dating, would we still see folks getting married 6 months after meeting each other? probably not. they would really get to know each other, spend a lot of time making sure they were eternally compatible, and develop their relationship, all of which take time to do properly. But, given that we have covenanted to keep the law of chastity, and are trying to do the right thing, I suppose we have no choice but to try to put off the natural man and figure things out as best we can.
Mary said: "I have to admit, in my own experience, that when I simply focus on being a daughter of God, or when I'm being my zany self and not caring who's watching, or when I am genuinely more interested in having a good time than catching a boy's eye, my odds have increased, and my phone rings."
That's what people tell me. It's never really happened for me. It's always just been hit or miss. Usually miss. Myself, I figure I'm just too much of a weirdo for any one guy to actually match me. I'm one in a million, as testified by the weird looks I get when telling people how much fun I have doing my job and how I've been learning to play Dungeons and Dragons at work. There isn't anything I can do about that but hope that someday the one in a million guy who can get me will show up in my life. In the mean time, I'll throw myself into my work, I'll try to scrape together enough money to fix the backfire on my '85 Jeep, and I'll keep hanging out with friends who like me but aren't feeling it for me.
Maybe it is all about the numbers, and I just have to accept the fact that I'm numbered out, is all. More and more that's the counsel I've been getting from bishops. At least, that's what my bishop in Boston said last year. It's hard, but there are just so many more guys than girls. I guess I just don't make the cut. I've considered trying to be more normal, but then I wouldn't be me. So I live my life alone, and I'm pretty much becoming resigned to that being how my mortal life will go.
Let me throw just a bit more into the pot.
It's been repeated often that this is a numbers game.
Disclaimer: I was Branch clerk for over a year, and now I am a Councilor in the Branch Presidency.
Our branch, and from talking with other Units we *Aren't* a minority, has something in the ballpark of 120 Elders/perspective elders and 65 Sisters.
Yet we can have 2x sisters attending.
The men in our area are largly apathetic. No home teaching being done. No service, no callings being done.
As a branch presidency, we know we can count on a sister to do her work, 75% of the time, we are lucky if the Elder will do it 25% of the time.
Our generation has become increasingly "me, Me, ME".
I have a few guys that I know that are almost thirty, that are proud they have never had a serious relationship.
How can you even know what you want in a person, if you become so set on only dating someone who meets your small list of ideals?
I can also tell you, from being in the Branch Presidency that Porn & Masterbation are an ecidemic. I believe that's a hunk of the problem as well. Why experience the fear of rejection & rejection, when you can sastisfy those urges by just finding some Porn online.
We can also talk about how there are only X that you are attracted to. Well, even those X amount of girls, that are model status (we have, perhaps two that fit that category) have been dateless. Why? None of the guys who *complain* about the calibre of women, are willing to put their gonads on the line, and have a pretty girl shoot them out of the sky.
Why? Every man secretly hopes to land themselves a supermodel. So, if a supermodel shoots you down, well, you may not be the supermodel material you always secretly thought you were.
In the end, what does it hurt to casually go on dates? Is there the danger that perhaps Sister SuperModel is going to need you to take her somewhere, and you wont be home to get the phone call? Or perhaps you really need to finish that level on the Xbox, and we all know, that's what matters in the end.
stacer- that's how it is for most of us. it's not about you not making the cut. like you said, you're one in a million. are there a million guys in your ward? usually we are alone, and our relationships don't work out. maybe we get married, but half of the time that doesn't work out either. that's why it's important to have great friends and work on improving yourself, that's what i try to do.
Also, it really doesn't matter what the records say, only how many people show up to church. and it is well known that men are more likely to become inactive. I can't imagine being 30 and never in a relationship. i can imagine being 30 and not married yet. And frankly, masturbation and having a caring committed relationship do not satisfy the same urge. And though pornography makes a convenient scapegoat, i hardly think that is the reason why no one is getting asked out or going on dates.
And for myself, i do not want a supermodel at all. can you imagine? for the rest of your life everyone would be trying to steal her away from you. It would just be a matter of time until someone richer or better looking or who "understands me better" would come along and she would run off with him. no thanks. i would rather have someone who i find irresistible, who makes me laugh, who will be faithful to me, who i can build a future together with, and who understands the committment of marriage. there's plenty of girls out there like that.
Hear hear Anonymous! I think you hit the nail on the head!
I might also add, why is it that the girls who are sitting home alone on Weekend evenings complaining about the lack of dating in the area never seem to ask out any guys themselves? If they guy’s not making the first move, why not make it yourself?
Growing up my wife spent most of her life in places where there were few if any LDS men available. She was always taught that if she wanted to get married, she’d more than likely have to convert her husband? Why not do the same?
Well, that goes for me too! No supermodels for Mary!
I have to say, I'm strangely encouraged by the dialogue happening here. I can't tell if we're making any headway on this topic, but at least we're talking! And if one has to be anonymous in order to shed some personal truth on the matter, I guess that's fine for now. At least I'm learning the honest male perspective, from those that have contributed.
Thanks for verbalizing. Hopefully, with a little more candid talk, we might just break past the barriers that are stalling us from really connecting with one another.
Anonymous said:
"There is another population of guys who have a different outlook on marriage and dating. Perhaps they never quite fit in or felt completely comfortable in the mormon culture. They're a little unorthodox by mormon standards. They don't particularly like dances, or other byu-like cheesy activities that are prevalent in their singles wards. They enjoy the company of women, sure, but are also happy being single and spending time with their friends and other interests. They desire eventually to have wives and families but feel no great push to get married right away. perhaps their parents, friends, or they themselves have been divorced.
"Now, you may not like this type of man, and you may think his attitudes are not those of a good mormon, but by the time you get to your late 20s in a singles ward he is quite common."
Reading this paragraph (sorry to repeat it, I know it's long) was like a "YES YES YES" moment for me (no, not the Herbal Essences kind) because I KNOW that guy so well. You put it perfectly. Nothing rang truer than that for me. Girls, I think we should really pay attention to this paragraph. Because I really think that the majority of the guys we're in contact with fall into this category.
I'm writing a separate post. If you're actually ready for more words on this subject, please visit me. I'd like to pose a new question, and hope that I'll get more honest male feedback. (ladies, I know I can count on it from you, too!)
Actually, my friends have decided that if I'm going to get married, I might just have to convert someone. That however, requires meeting eligible men who would be intereted in the church.
Even for those who not members, once you get to a certain point it's hard to meet people, period. This is especially true if you do not have a church group, school program or some other community. Most people don't want to meet some random guy in a bar or off the street.
Honestly, regarding the paragraph quoted above...I'd love to meet a guy like that, I just haven't. Or I have, and they are not interested.
Anonymous Male (since there seem to me more than one Anonymous around here).
You know, I think we will need to just agree to disagree.
I'll admit, there is a population of girls, that I will never ask out. Why? Because they just don't interest me at any level.
There will always be that percentage that I will be willing to date just so that I hone down who I want.
Yes, it does get tough to meet someone after a certain point in life. (I was 28 when I married my wife.) And, no, I wouldn't recommend meeting a random guy in a bar or off the street.
The underlying theme I see throughout all these posts is that somehow both guys and girls just expect their perfect match to waltz in to church one day with some bright light shining down on them and the voice of God saying “He/she’s the one!”
If the singles ward isn’t doing it for you and you’re serious about finding a spouse, then get involved in some type of club or group or social where you have a chance of meeting people with similar interests and see what happens. Sitting on your butt and complaining isn’t going to make one appear.
I certainly don't expect the right person to "waltz into church one day with some bright light shining down on them." Still, there's only so much you can do. I get involved with things I have interest in, but these things usually mean a room full of women. Even the things you'd expect men to be more interested in--for example, I'm learning to play D&D--in my case is a gaming group of six women and one middle-aged man. I am part of a biking group that includes both guys and girls, but the group I have the stamina to be a part of is all women (sorry, I just can't bike 40 miles in one night). But I do get out, I talk to people, and sometimes I find someone interesting who I try to get to know better, and eventually nothing happens. *shrug* There's only so much you can do before you finally say I'm doing all I can, and only divine intervention will ever change things.
Wow, i have been quoted. A great honor indeed. And anonymous female, i am sure you have met a guy like that, there are lots of us. but you're right, maybe they were not interested, that's how it goes usually. Chris, i agree with you basically. there is a group i am not interested in dating, and a percentage I am. i guess the question is how big is the percentage. that is probably different for everyone.
Part of the difficulty of this is that we have so much freedom and choice. The idea of marrying for love, or even choosing who we marry, is relatively recent. In the old days, all i would need to do is find a teenage lass of marriageable age with child-bearing hips and rudimentary cooking skills. then we would get married and hopefully grow to love each other. Now that sort of person is easy to find compared to someone that i feel attracted to and connect with on all levels. But i think i prefer our modern way. Some call it being picky, but we expect to find someone that we are truly in love with and that we really have a lot in common with. but that's tough. i recently found out i was descended from some polygamists, which thing i had never supposed. now i feel like i am truly one of the gang. my great great grandmother was the second wife of her husband, and they were basically commanded to marry. well, in reading her memoirs, she was none too keen on this idea, and explicitly stated that she thought my GG-grandfather was a swell guy, but she was not really interested in marrying him. but they did it anyway and by all accounts had a happy life. I guess expectations were different. now our expectations are very high. we expect to find someone we are in love with, that we are crazy about and who is crazy about us. someone who we get along with well, who understands us and wants to be with us. i think in general this is a good development, but it makes the whole marriage business more difficult.
As a firner LPWer, I have to chime in here.
I place the blame primarily on church teachings and indoctrination, and I feel worse for the guys than I do for the women. Here's why:
1. Men/boys in the Church are taught to control and supress their sex drives to the point that they emasculate (yes, that's the word, folks) themselves out of a desire to be more "Christlike"v or a "worthy priesthood holder". Yet they're damned if they do and damned if they don't. Who wants to even contemplate doing the sin next to murder? But if these guys don't embrace their sexuality (and maybe get a little naughty), they'll end up as creepy 79 year old virgins, which is what the Church wants them to be if they never marry. Right now I'm thinking about the sweetest, nicest single guys in that stake who's pretty much a eunuch, and afraid of even being touched. It's the church's fault. This is sick.
2. It's doctrinally and theologically confusing to be told that "dating is a priesthood responsiblity." Who needs this pressure?
3. Mormon dating is more analogous to middle school flirtation than it is to seriously dating outside of the Church, and it's not just because of the sex factor. When most of the (LDS) peers are married with children in their late twenties, and the pool becomes smaller and more lopsided, there are bound to be cliques, rules, childish shenanigans, etc.
Most Recent Anonymous, I have had very similar thoughts about the effects of supressing the sex drive and the juvenile games people in the church play when it comes to dating.
A couple of things, though. I personally don't feel more sorry for the guys than the girls. Speaking from a female perspective, we are also told to suppress any sexual desires we have for the very same reasons as guys. I think a lot of women get a bad rap for being frigid, and maybe there are women out there who are. But if you were a fly on the wall when some of my friends and I talk about how much exactly we do want to have sex, I think you might be surprised. I am not happy with the fact that I am a 28 year-old virgin, and have the feeling that it is going to get even harder as I approach my mid to late 30s (women's sexual peak). I really don't want to be a 40 year-old virgin. Heck, I don't want to be a 30 year-old virgin.
And while I'm sure guys do feel pressure because dating is called "a Priesthood responsibility," girls also have similar and congruent pressures. We're supposed to be wives and mothers - for many people in the church that's ALL we're supposed to be. Not getting asked out or reaching the late 20's/early 30's with no husband or kids all signals failure. And it's not just self-imposed pressure. I have lots of stories of snide comments made to single friends by family and home ward members because they are not married.
I'm not saying we have it worse, I am just saying that I don't feel more sorry for the guys. Women and men in the church both have huge pressures put on us to get married and pop out some kids. Those of us who are older and single are labeled as different.
I miss having Sheri Dew in the General RS Presidency. She was such a beacon to us single women. It was nice to see that someone single could be in leadership and have wise words for us women that didn't necessarily have to do with our roles as mothers and wives.
Why don't you just tell them we're dead? Then we won't be such a drag on your prospects.
Dad, it's not like I walk around saying Oh, woe is me, my parents aren't active in the church. :) But if I'm talking with someone about family it might come up. The point is, I don't want to be with the judgmental types who will only date the "Mormon celebrities" or those with an impeccable pioneer pedigree.
When I say I feel more sorry for the guys, I mean that the guys are being emasculated. Women are coddled and encouraged to be demure, and the Church often pretends they don't know about or want sex. Women are told ad nauseum that "whatever blessings they're denied in this life (by those smirking, shirking, non-magnifying-their-calling-guys) will be obtained in the next"--whatever the heck that means.
But because of the Church's own doctrines, policies and programs, men who don't marry early are foced to not think about sexuality and they lose their other drives too--drives for aggression, competition, the chase, whatever.
The Church's idea of a good Mormon male is one that, if not married, is still the button-down white shirt and tie wearing guy, only he's an emotional and psychological eunuch.
That there was even ever a Sheri Dew in the RS presidency is proof of the church's more readily accepting unmarried women of any age. Unmarried men (never-marrieds) however will never be bishops, stake presidents, GAs, prophets. There is no place for them, and along with the no sex alone or with anyone else stricture placed on the male, the lack of trust and confidence the leaders have in them is doubly emasculating.
So I feel more sorry for them. And it wasn't until I started seriously dating non-member men that I truly saw and embraced the difference.
Lastly, there is also the subtle (and not so subtle sometimes) implication that any Mormon male over a certain age who remains unmarried must be gay. And as we all know, "gay" in the LDS church is more than just an epithet--it's a doctrinal condemnation.
The message for single men in the Church is: fix yourself! Right now! There's something wrong with you! You're not magnifying your priesthood! You're a loser! You should be ashamed of yourself! Something must be wrong with you!
The message for single women in the Church is: There, there, dear...those single boys have a problem, and they're lazy and unrighteous. It's *their* fault that you're not married. But never mind--we'll fix it for you in the next life. You can have a husband (even if you have to share someone else's) and all the kids you want if you remain faithful in this life.
There are trememdous men in the Cambridge and Boston stakes. There are many reasons many of them remain unmarried. If (some of them) are geeks or socially inept, there are many factors that contribute to that state--some socially, doctrinally or culturally initiated. As you say, some of those who were inactive for a time (or who are still inactive or have left the Church) sometimes are the coolest guys and the best ones to date.
I rest my case.
I second anonymous #2. Those are the exact messages that are sent, and pretty much in those words too.
>>The point is, I don't want to be with the judgmental types who will only date the "Mormon celebrities" or those with an impeccable pioneer pedigree.
Are there really many of those types left when you get to your late 20s? i hope not.
Speaking as someone who had a bishop tell her, and numerous other women, that if she just lost a little weight, she'd get asked out, I don't think every leader sees it as a problem on the guy's part. I was told that there were guys right now who would date me, but they were afraid of what people would say (because I was so fat, you see).
That was the most insulting thing I have ever been told.
(I had a friend in Chicago whose bishop also told her to lose weight, so it's not just this one man. My friend could be classified as "chubby," but was in no way obese. And neither was I)
On the other hand, when the leaders do tell us in a wink-wink, nudge-nudge kind of way that it is the guys' fault and we will be rewarded later, I feel kind of condescended to. Being told "Oh, sweetie, it's not you, it's them" rings with the same sort of falsity that "It's not you, it's me" does.
And I realize I just contradicted the very subject line of this post. I'm very good at seeing multiple sides to an argument. :) I'm glad that this has sparked so much discussion.
Just out of curiosity Anon 2, how do you handle the sex situation with the non-member guys? Because I haven't met too many who would be A-OK with the no touchy until after marriage thing.
Well, it certainly is a guy's problem if as a 30-something year old virgin or repentant former playboy he lets thirty pounds get in the way of a relationship.
Yet these same guys get no guidance from the Church. They're left with articles in the New Era (because the only faithful guys who are singles MUST be teens or college students) so it's hard to blame them for wanting a thirty year old mind in a teen's body.
It was in the LPW ward that we were all treated to the yearly chastity talk, one of which heralded the notion that *anything* including hand-holding that aroused sexual thoughts was to be avoided. I heard that with my own ears.
And yet the Church wonders why it's losing (mostly male) singles by the thousands.
It's not that the guys are evil, stupid, shallow and weird. It's that they're not allowed to be human.
And for the record, the bishop(s) was/were trying to be helpful, even by giving in to the stereotype that men are about looks. What else could they say? Pray more? REad more scriptures and you'll get married?
My bishop who said this was generally a pretty enlightened, supportive of my graduate school goals type of man. I think that's one reason I was so shocked by his comment.
The thing is, no girl needs to be told to lose weight. Most skinny girls think they could lose a pound or two. Me and my friend and the other girls who have heard this from leaders know exactly how overweight they are. There are two reactions that a lot of women will have to this sort of "counsel" (I vascillated between them both before I remembered that I was making an effort and had lost some weight recently): Either she thinks she will never ever ever eat again except for a couple of pieces of lettuce. OR she wants to go home and each a big bar of dark chocolate. With coconut. On some ice cream.
The ironic thing is, we had just been talking in a meeting a week earlier about a girl he was concerned might be anorexic.
While it's true that informal weight counselling under the auspices of ecclesiastic advice is alarming, if the bishop was talking as a "friend" or "as a man" I don't uite see the problem.
I never considered myself a "girl" in the LPW--I was a professional woman in my early 30s. And most women in the LPW wards and University wards (hell, most single wards) are smart enough and psychologically adjusted enough to know that as well-meant and maybe as near-insulting as such comments may seem, sometimes they're, well, true.
I apologize, it's habit to say "girls" and "guys." I am not trying to insinuate immaturity in any of us. I consider myself a woman as well, but the diminutive terms flow off my tongue, or out of my fingers, more readily.
I found his comment to be pretty inappropriate because of what I had gone in there to talk with him about. I went in to talk with him about a spiritual concern I was having and to get his advice. I did not go in there to talk about dating, or lack of dating, but he took what I said and made it into a dating issue and then proceeded to tell me that if I just lost as much as I already had, plus a bit more, THEN I'd be a knockout. I walked in there feeling very good about my weight loss accomplishments, knowing I still had a way to go in that area, but looking for spiritual guidance in another area entirely. Basically, for an hour or two after that conversation, the personal pride I had felt in my weight accomplishment was squashed under the knowledge that I still had so far to go before I could expect a guy to look at me.
And I know part of that reflects on my own insecurities. I have struggled with my weight since I was 10 years old. I suffer from depression. I also know that I am not the only woman in the ward who has some form of psychological issue that she is dealing with.
There are a myriad of reasons that I don't think weight loss counseling is the provenance of a bishop. Unless a woman walks in and says, "I need some help because I realize I am overweight and it's out of control and maybe you have some ideas for me," I don't think the bishop should offer up weight loss as a solution for all of her other problems.
Plus, I know lots of skinny girls who don't get asked out either, so I don't think it is solely my weight that is an issue.
(and now we can talk about the host of other issues I have that prevent me from getting asked out :) )
Disclaimer #1: I came to this blog via a link that Stacer left on LDSLinkUp. At the risk of sounding like a total and complete suck-up, I've known Stacer for a bit over a year, and I think there's something wrong with the guys in Boston if they let her get away.
Disclaimer #2: I'm more than a bit past my "Sell By" date, so I have nothing to gain or lose by whatever I write here.
Now.... a few thoughts.
There's a world of difference between Gospel principles and "Mormon culture". Unfortunately, the former isn't being applied near enough and the latter is causing the overwhelming majority of the problems.
There is *WAY* too much emphasis on the wrong aspects of man/woman relations. Looks aren't everything. Important, yes. But not everything. Long ago, I got tired of the God's Gift to RM types (I hope He kept the receipt).
Although I do know a guy who was a single EQP in a "family" ward (he's married now), I'm really disgusted by the attitude of married people toward singles. Being single is not a disease, and marriage is not a cure.
There's way too much pressure and way too little preparation for dating and marriage. As soon as that poor RM gets off the plane, people are starting to wonder when he's going to get married. Give us a break! Personally, I think any RM who even *thinks* about marriage before 6 months are up, should have his head examined.
I hate to say it, but even our leaders aren't much help. Exactly what is wrong with "hanging out" or "casual dating"??? At least people are getting together! And why is it that the singles program is the only program (of which I am aware) that doesn't have some sort of general board/council in Salt Lake?
Women (and men!) in the Church might not have so much of a problem with weight if only more of our "activities" involved more actual *activity* and less sitting around and eating. (And any man who says an unkind word to a woman about her weight should be taken out and flogged.)
Stay tuned for updates.
Jahn
The last 5 girls I asked out here in Utah (Provo no less) all said, "no". They all had LAME reasons they couldn't go out too. I can understand that you're not into me. That's fine and getting turned down is not going to kill me. However, do not whine to me that you're not going out as much as you would like. (Mostly I mean this figuratively about women as a collective but one of the said 5 girls actually did tell me later how she never goes out. Is it any wonder why?) Dating, in part, is an exercise in networking. Even if you aren't totally interested in the guy is it going to kill you to spend some time going out and getting to know him? You may meet the person you want to marry from a date with a friend or aquintance that you only went out with as friends. And if you keep telling guys, "no" then pretty soon all guys are going to see you as someone who doesn't want to date. Sure a lot of us guys are to blame in this but women you need to tell your sisters to pull their weight so to speak. This is not a one way street. I'm now vacating the soap box.
I do think the girls who are super-picky and turn guys down left and right have nothing to talk about. However, I, and a lot of my friends, literally do not get asked out. I have only ever said no to one date in my entire life, and that was to a guy who was 14 years older than me and who I just did not feel comfortable with. Other than him, I haven't been asked out in over 2 years.
I am a huge proponent of injecting just a little more sexuality into single LDS culture.
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